As far as I am concerned, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion and has everything to do with the fact the Defense Department IS NOT in control of it’s contractors and continues to reward contractual noncompliance with more contracts.
Michigan defense contractor has God in its sights
By RICHARD LARDNER
Associated Press
January 19, 2010
WASHINGTON(AP) – Combat rifle sights used by U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan carry references to Bible verses, stoking concerns about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops.
Military officials said the citations don’t violate the ban and they won’t stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night.
The contractor that makes the equipment, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., said the U.S. military has been a customer since 1995 and the company has never received any complaints about the Scripture citations.
“We don’t publicize this,” Tom Munson, Trijicon’s director of sales and marketing, said in an interview. “It’s not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, ‘Yes, it’s there.’”
The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon’s rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they’re aiming for.
Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include “JN8:12,” a reference to John 8:12: “When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’”
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: “For God, who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.”
Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon’s. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company’s products. Trijicon’s scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company’s Web site.
Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the biblically inscribed sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.
“I don’t have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Koran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations,” Weinstein said. The foundation is a nonprofit watchdog group opposed to religious favoritism within the military.
Weinstein said he has received complaints about the Scripture citations from active-duty and retired members of the military. He said he couldn’t identify them because they fear retaliation.
A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the inscribed sights don’t violate the ban on proselytizing because there’s no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.
“This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency,” said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. “Are we going to stop using money because the bills have ‘In God We Trust’ on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they’ll continue to be used.”
The Marine Corps and the Army did not respond to e-mails from The Associated Press requesting comment on the Trijicon sights.
Munson, Trijicon’s sales director, said the practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon’s founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon’s president, has continued the practice. (click HERE for original article)
Here is the ABC article on this with a different video.
Obviously the DOD has known about this for some time and has been violating their own rules about prophetalizing(sp)in the Military. The Military leaders who approved it or condone it should be punished.
If the admitted bible verses were not in the specifications for the item, then the DoD should withhold payment or the company should be fined.
When will the DoD get control of their contractors?
All the fuss over a serial number or possibly a model number? Nothing to see here…move along :p
The company should have just kept their mouth shut and let the conspiracy theories start flying.
There are some oddities concerning “religion” and such. All Bibles and the U.S. flags, even on lockers, had to be removed from the U.S. Marine Corps/U.S. contractors work area at Al Taqaddum, but near-pornograhy (everything sexually displayed except the organs themselves, and even those were acceptable for a long while if they were of females) was fine to have strewn around and up on lockers. Bibles had to be removed at Camp Speicher where we worked, too. Proselitizing is one thing, but soldiers having means to moments of religion themselves when on breaks or even a few minutes after a wolfed-down lunch might decrease the high amount of suicides. When the religious-oriented soldiers could not direct energy/frustration, etc to his God, then he seemingly directed it to his fellow man, and the women. The blatant sexually oriented material being displayed all around, open permitted and contrastingly all Godly and patriotic material i.e. flag on lockers totally removed, only fueled the sexual-discriminatory-oriented, “females as objects”, frequently spoken “Hey, b-tch!” atmosphere that was so blatant there.
In Faith We Trust®©
You have my permission to use it on your weapon!
Proselytizing is the word you are looking for and I honestly don’t think you know what it means. Are you joking? Including a hardly visable, mundane reference to a bible verse as a part of a product’s serial number is proselytizing? 99% of the soldiers wouldn’t even have a clue that it was there or what it meant.
But Just so I’m sure, let me break this down. Most products have serial numbers. Most of the time, only the company really knows what they mean. So if this company inscripts a serial number (hypothetically speaking, as you like to say) such as 19B002Z165JN8:12 on their products, you interpret that as them trying to convert our soldiers to Christianity? Really? And you want to fine the company? Give me a break.
Here is a link to another story with a picture of this “prostelytizing” gun scope.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/01/19/2010-01-19_firm_takes_flak_for_rifle_scopes_with_bible_verse.html
What I said was “Proselytizing” is in violation of the DoD’s policies…not mine. Trijicon has already admitted to what numbers mean. They are not random serial numbers, they have a specific meaning. These numbers are not a part of the Army’s specifications.
What if the owner of the company who made our soldiers body Armor was Jewish and incorporated a Star of David into the design. Or if the owners of the company who makes the fatigues worked in a picture of the Muslim symbol of Allah!
As far as I’m concerned it’s not about converting anyone to anything. It’s about….”What were the technical specifications for the item you bid on?”
A company is paid 100′s of millions of dollars for a specific product…nothing more, nothing less.
The DoD is not in control of their contractors. So….when exactly is it not OK to deviate from the technical specifications?
A lot of people love McDonalds….I think a small innocuous “Golden Arches” strategically placed on our soldiers uniforms wouldn’t hurt anyone!
Sparky,
You are ridiculous!!!
If McDonald’s furnished the uniform for the war fighter and and the design constituted the golden arches and it was the best available then guess what that is what we get.
You obviously did not read further into your own post the company has been doing business with the US government since 1995 they have incorporated these bible versus into their sights for over 30 years that is way before 1995.
You are one-sided on anything that does not fit your agenda or suit your cause.
This is Again another way for you to exploit our soldiers and the contractors who support them.
Someone needs to put a boot in your A$$
You truly are IGNORANT…
Welcome back!! How’s SBH!! I am going to say this really slow for you. It’s about tech specs not religion!!
And it’s always easy for some anonymous A$$hole to trash me. Man up and disclose (not expose) yourself!
I would interpret the inscription as “Proselytizing” in a non-verbal form.
I used those sights (ACOG) in Iraq and had no idea this reference to scripture was incorporated on the equipment.
I don’t think that anyone would have even known if the reporters hadn’t aired it.
How does the scripture reference violate their contract specifications?
How is it an instrument of proselytizing if soldiers don’t even knew it was there?
If soldiers don’t know it is there and it is considered proselytizing then wouldn’t praying for those same soldiers without their knowledge be the same thing?
To me it’s simple. People proselytize, not items.
Sure it may be used as a tool of proselytizing, but so could an M-16 be used to kill other American soldiers.
The military has been very responsible and in my opinion overzealous in “protecting” the religious beliefs in Iraq and Afghanistan. But, when does it go too far?
Should we have a religious litmus test for all contractors, less the “bless” the work they do for the military?
I can see it now.
“Ohh no, we must not use this ammunition it was blessed by employees at the factory.”
I do not argue that defense contractors run rough shod over the government, but this is not an example of that.
We have way more important issues to worry about. At least these sights have not lead to the death of soldiers. In fact I would be willing to bet that they have saved countless soldiers lives by increasing accuracy.
Furthermore, I think the scriptural references are apt for what the basic intent of the sights are. One fundamental quality of the ACOG is the illuminated reticle (bringing light to darkness). Sure it’s not a perfect match, but I know I found comfort knowing that I had the piece of equipment because it would allow me to shoot better, which in combat can save your life.
First of all….Thank you for serving. Secondly, I believe our soldiers should have the best of the best of everything. The quality of the product has not been called into question.
What if….the owner of the company had included L24:41 in the serial number. Would that be acceptable?
Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth, and the (very) birds with expanded wings? He knows the prayer of each one and its glorification, and Allah is Cognizant of what they do. (The Light 24.41) From the Koran
Sparky,
You are again talking out of your A$$
The references on the scopes are about bringing light to the darkness ie. (I’ll say this slowly so your simple one sided mind can comprehend) the scopes make a target visible both in LIGHT AND DARKNESS.
The Light 24.41 makes no reference to bringing light to the darkness.
Also since all of our U.S. currency has “In God We Trust” on it I guess all of the Muslims will stop using it. And Iraq and Afghanistan will give back the billions our great nation has spent in those crap hole countries.
Honestly I am not a xeno/Muslim-phobe.
Especially if I am not aware I am being prhostelatized.
I am not upset that we had to listen to call to prayer.
I am not upset that we had all sorts of stupid rules that I feel put us in danger during Ramadan.
–In theory soldier safety is job 1 in the military especially in a combat zone—
Here is a good one for you.
I have no idea what the pyramid and floating eye and cap piece picture on the dollar bill stand for. I do not care if it stays or gets removed. I would only care if it represented some sort of legally binding contract like “use this dollar and the Supreme Court of the US owns your first four gerbils.”
Also, frankly I would be glad to see people exercising their freedom to express themselves.
If you knew me you could ask any of my friends and family about what I called “victory” in Iraq.
My test was simple. See a woman driving/working/wearing western dress. Anything along those lines and I knew the country was moving away from a Saudi/Iran/Afghanistan model of laws to a more western (Constitutional freedoms, not Christian) structure.
Like I said, there are way more important things to worry about.
For example, did you see the news that some weapons manufacturers that were caught in a sting to try and get foreign defense contracts?
Links:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_05/b4165000370242.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/business/21sting.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1920007620100119?type=marketsNews
This is a bigger scandal that some numbers and letters on the side of some scopes (that are great by the way) that few people even realized were there.
Each time I go to my local V.A. Hospital, for a varity of things, I always look for the WWII Veterans, and shake their hands while thanking them for their sacrifices they made way back then, also their wives. These men and women, our grand parents, great grand parents, fathers, mothers all lived in a much different time, a time of respecting our elders, we wore our pants up where our waists are, we opened doors for the elderly, women, men. We went to church on Sundays. For the most part men worked and the wives stayed home and raised the children.
If the ACLU and other far extreme left leaning folks of this country had their way, a Koran would replace the Bible when our President is sworn into office, churches would be out right banned, a cross could not be worn around your neck on a chain. Children would be forced to work at the age of 5. The military would have to start goose stepping when they march, all Americans would have to be branded with numbers, we would be required to watch government run television programming to make certain we are properly endoctrinated according to the dictatorship in power at the time.
I say that some people who object to the items on the sides of weapons, crosses on churches, the word GOD – should leave our country if they are offended. If you don’t believe in My GOD, I am not offended, please leave those of us that do believe – alone – You can always go to visit Hugo Chavez and maybe he will let you stay in his country, or North Korea and let their dictator starve you to death like he does with his citizens.
It’s not about God. It’s about the DoD enforcing their own policies. It’s about the separation of church and state. Every soldiers should have the right to believe how they choose and should be allowed to carry religious items on their person, a bible, prayer beads, a crucifix, a rosary etc.
A religious fanatic looks for anything to promote membership and conversion to promote their adjenda to the ignorant masses. This is what the report implies.
It’s the mandatory acceptance of the personal savior bit before being able to see the light forced upon those who are unfamiliar with history and theology. The worst offenders of common decency are those who use religious ideologies of both sides to promote themselves. The intent of the scope is to bring darkness to someone’s light.
God, Corp and Country
I don’t go to a building called a church, only in my heart and mind. I treat people like I want to be treated, and when someone gets loud and verbally abusive, I simply walk away. I’ve had my time in the Sun, as my life is almost over. I hate to see how our country is turning.
I mind my own business – with the exception of this blogsite. I don’t respond to all stories, only ones that interest me, because someday our right to speak freely may be taken away, kinda like a weapons manufacturer may have to stop or change something that only offends a few that may have a religious conatation- may or may not that is.
I AGREE with you 100% !!!
We (The U.S.) needs to learn from Australia
Check this out.
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia Law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.
Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir Apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular State, and its laws were made by parliament.
“If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia Law or a theocratic State, then Australia is not for you”, he said on National Television.
“I’d be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia:
one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can’t agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that’s a better option”, Costello said.
Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country.
Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should “clear off?. ?Basically people who don’t want to be Australians, and who don’t want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off”, he said.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation’s mosques quote:
“IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.
Take it or leave it.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.”
“However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the ‘politically correct’ crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia .”
“However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.”
“This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.”
“This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom”
“We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.
Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society …. Learn the language!”
“Most Australians believe in God.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.
It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.”
“We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why.
All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.”
“If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don’t like “A Fair Go”, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don’t care how you did things where you came from.
By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.
“This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.
But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
‘THE RIGHT TO LEAVE’.”
“If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE.
We didn’t force you to come here.. You asked to be here.
So accept the country YOU accepted.”
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, Canadian, American and European citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voting the same truths!!
Again the non-Muslim must change his way of life so as not to offend Muslims.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims….
For those of you who are not tuned in to CNN 24/7 here’s the update.
http://mssparky.com/2010/01/firm-will-remove-bible-references-from-gun-sights/
On Thursday, however, Army Gen. David Petraeus, Central Command’s top officer, called the practice “disturbing.”
“This is a serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan,” Petraeus told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.
Maybe Sparky Hater should email General Patraeus and tell him he’s talking out his A$$.
IMHO, he is covering his A$$, not speaking from it.
He likes his job and is afraid of buss tires.
Sparky Hater: Interesting point about Australia.
A small footnote: “Southern Cross,” is a constellation and a song performed by Crosby, Stills and Nash written by Rick and Tom Curtis, Rick is now deceased and former Vietnam Veteran. Rick had mentioned his inspiration for the song came from navigating, using this constellation as his bearing.
The Latin cross (crux ordinaria) is a symbol of Christianity even though it was used as a pagan symbol for millennia before the foundation of the Christian Church. It is only one symbol of many.
Jihadist’s are always looking for a ways to reinvent the crusades and to recruit martyr’s. This is the issue the General is concerned about.
In closing, I have several friends who belong to the church of the single malt.
Baboo,
I understand the generals concern..
But how about the general telling the jihadist’s, crusaders, and potential martyrs i.e terrorists that our soldiers will use that very scope with the bible verse they find so offensive to put a 7.62 through their skull therefore allowing them to immediately speak to Allah and aid in introducing them to their 72 virgins.
I’m sure many soldiers has said something along those lines as they squeezed the trigger knowing every Jihadist is prepared to meet Allah.