I’ve gotten some “hate mail” with regards to a comment I made on “The Rachel Maddow Show” and “Stand Up! With Pete Dominick”. The comments are regarding the lack of “craft” qualifications for some of the Third Country National (TCN) also called Sub-Contract Workers (SCW) and Host Country National (HCN’s) working under LOGCAP contracts.
First, there are three types of workers working under LOGCAP contracts.
Expats (Expatriates)-These are the Americans working for a LOGCAP Contractor such as KBR, Fluor, Dyncorp etc.
Host Country Nationals (HCN’s) - These are local residents, ie Iraqi’s, Afghan’s, Kuwaiti’s working in their own countries.
Sub-Contract Workers (SCW’s) also called Third Country Nationals (TCN’s) – These are workers from countries other than the US or the country they are working in, ie Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait. These TCN’s can be from Canada, England, Croatia, Bosnia but are most likely from the Philippines, India, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal.
Contractors like KBR, Fluor and Dyncorp hire TCN’s as craftspeople such as electricians, plumbers, carpenters, HVAC and expect them to have the same skill-set, experience and safety culture that Americans have even though they have never been exposed to US codes, standards and training. There are some countries such as Canada and England that have codes and licensing requirements. But the majority of these TCN’s come for poor third world countries such as India or Sri Lanka and have no craft experience. Even the best Sri Lankan electrician is not up to par with a licensed US electrician. That’s not an insult, just a fact.
My issue is not whether or not these people are hard workers. Because they normally are. My issue is that MOST should not be performing craft work. KBR and others will say…..”They are supervised by expats.” That’s not always the case. More often than not the expats are off BSing or sleeping or just don’t care or they are not qualified to supervise any crafts.
The mission is to support our soldiers. The electrocution deaths and injuries prove that has not been happening.
My next issue. These TCN’s are forced to live in inhumane an filthy cramped conditions. They have to stay long enough to pay off “recruiters” and airfare. They are fed very poor diets. And the decision makers in KBR and the DoD walk by these camps everyday with the “Not my problem” attitude. Now there are thousands of these people stranded on the streets of Iraq without passports and visas because their “recruiter” just left them!
My next issue. This practice promotes human trafficking and abuse and I’m damn sick and tired of KBR and others not taking responsibility for it. They contract with these slave traders and the DoD allows it.
So…here is my stand on the issue of TCN’s, SCW’s, HCN’s performing craft work. If you must employ TCN or HCN craft workers, the ratio of qualified expat of the same craft to TCN should be no more the 1to 2 and the expat must be held responsible for the work of the TCN or HCN. I’ve watched one expat supervising up to 20 TCN’s or HCN’s doing electrical work. How can you watch what each and every person is doing? It’s impossible.
I will say I was very fortunate. I worked with who I feel was one of the best Iraqi electricians in Iraq. He had better work ethics and attitude than many of the US electricians and he was willing to learn the “American way”.
Third Country Nationals and Host Country Nationals are also employed in the Dining Facilities, Laundry, Housekeeping, Security, Drivers, Laborers and Administrative. I want to think for the most part, the expats treated these people well, but I know there are instances of abuse. We had several Bosnian Laundry supervisors who were so abusive to the Iraqi workers. But, KBR didn’t do anything about it.
I loathe human rights abusers. If slavery is illegal in the States, why is it legal on US bases in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait.
Ms Sparky
you know, i agree with you wholeheartedly. when i worked at C7, the trades particularly the Supervisor was just downright nasty to the SCWs (Indians,Filipinos…)it was disgusting. Same thing for one of my ex-coworkers he treated our people like slaves. we were broke down in work areas our SCWs hated to work for him whenever I or my girlfriend would be gone on our R&Rs. they dreaded our vacations because they knew they were going to be treated like dirt by him.
*too lazy to correct w/caps…
Ms Sparky’s Response:
The closest I ever got to being fired (I think) was when I was taking food from the DFAC to feed our Filipinos. I am just as disgusted with the DoD over this as I am with KBR. We invade a country to free the people from tyranny and the evil Saddam. And then we enslave 100,000 people from other countries. Does anyone else see the irony here?
Heres a story by David Phinney on this.
Blood, Sweat & Tears: Asia’s Poor Build U.S. Bases in Iraq
http://www.rinf.com/news/oct05/jobs-scam.html
Thanks for bringing this up
Ms Sparky’s Response:
I read the whole thing. A little long for me but very well worth the read!! Thank you!
You think that’s bad you should see how the Saudi religious police round up the Filipino’s when it’s time to go prayer. They chase them down the street and whack’em with clubs and throw them in jail if they leave the areas specified for non-Muslims during prayer. When the Arabs will tell you it’s time to go, they and put you on a plane with a one way ticket. Skip any legal appeal issue you think you might have.
Regarding Iraq: If an Iraqi contractor is having a hard time with U.S. inspection outside the wire and is in threat of being in non-compliance and losing a contract, they plant and a roadside bomb. A roadside bomb was located the following with an upcoming inspection as with case with an American Engineer performing inspections outside the wire.
Regarding KBR: Most of the Engineers and Designers are Asian TCN’s. What type of design standards are you going to get from these people, not to mention the quality of construction and installation services? It’s time to bring’em home and let the Iraqi’s export them.
David Phinney’s article is well worth the reading. I know that the TCN drivers that I worked with had some of same problems . . their food, medical, housing was supposed to be supplied by their company so KBR’s response was “not their problem”. Many of the TCN’s were from Pakistan and either had never driven a truck or didn’t know how to drive a truck with a manual transmission. Most didn’t even know how to hook up to trailers, or properly drop trailers. They were told that they would be doing manual labor jobs. They also told me that they made $800 per month and that it cost them $2500 to go home, above and beyond their transportation costs. This $2500 was a fee that was paid to their “Kuwaiti Sponsor”. If the fee wasn’t paid they were jailed at the border.
I could go on and on about the horrible living conditions that they had, the constant complaining to management, but you can only slam your head against that brick wall for so long before you step back and just take action yourself. I bought food, over-the-counter medicines, personal hygiene items for my “crew”, and I never had any major problems with my “TCN’s”, even with the gender difference.
When I arrived in theater they were literally living in their trucks, when I left they had “hooches”, a medical clinic, and access to most DFAC’s. Two camps even had DFAC’s that served their local fares.
I personally think that this progress has taken way too long to accomplish and if they do the same work that expats do they should get the same pay. They are risking their lives the same as we did, they left families and loved ones behind, the same as we did. They were killed and/or severely injured on the MSR the same as we were. So why the huge difference in the payscale?? KBR’s excuse was that with the currency exchange they were making the same as expats. What a bunch of BS.
Yes, I see the irony, but we are just the mosquito buzzing the ear of these large corporations. Who knows maybe someday our blogging will be heard and changes will be made. Until then . . .
It is true about the currency exchange, which is directly related to the cost of living in their home countries. An American dollar goes a long way the Philippines, Nepal, Thailand. Ask any Bosnian and they will tell you they don’t pay taxes to the state.
When KBR bills the American taxpayer based upon paying an American wage base but pays foreign wages to foreigners and pocketing the difference, is a fraudulent business practice and no doubt with some type of a contractual loophole attached, needs to be addressed
Ms Sparky’s Response:
Oh hell yes!!! I’ve been working on it. It’s right up there with the uplift only on the first 40 hours and no overtime issue. What is KBR actually invoicing the DoD for. Does the DoD even know?
Are they charging for uplift on every hour? Are they charging for overtime? Things that make you go hmmmm!
This is not mention (overtime straight time hours)we were not paid as American contractors after the 40 hours. I’d like to see some of they owe me back in my pocket. I’m sure KBR billed the Govt. for one that too! I was always told American Military and civilain laws applied to our contracts. Why wouldn’t U.S.labor laws apply well?
Ms Sparky’s Resposne:
Well so far it’s been because we didn’t legally work for KBR. We worked for SEII out of the Cayman Islands.
Baboo Remembers: Overtime hours lawsuit already filed and denied back in 2006. (Not employed by an American company, actually employed by SEII) I’m still trying to figure out how out of the 84+ hours a week we worked which 40 hours were “hazardous”??? Anybody have any answers for that one??
Ms Sparky’s Response:
I don’t think the overtime suit is dead. I just received some new info on that. I will do a little more research and post something about it.
My tax bill was American!
Ms Sparky’s Response:
I know. Mine too!
As a former KBR employee, I would like to address some of the misconceptions out there regarding how KBR bills the Government.
First of all, KBR does not bill American wage rates for TCN workers. It is a cost plus contract there requires KBR to submit the payroll registers to the Government to support their billings. They get reimbursed for the actual cost, regardless of where the worker is from.
Regarding the payment of hazardous duty pay on the first 40 and straight time after that. When KBR submitted their proposals to the Government, this was clearly identified and accepted by the Government. U.S. Goverment laws allows for many exemptions from its laws when the actual work is not performed on U.S. soil. As for anyone who complains about this, you had a choice when you went to Houston to process in, you made a choice to sign your employee agreement and go to work under those conditions.
Now, I do not enjoy defending KBR or condone many of their actions and they obviously have many problems due to the lack of proper management and oversight. But before you throw allegations out to the public, check the facts. Wild allegations only hurt the credibility of properly raised issues which have merit.
Ms Sparky’s Response:
In defense of the you had the choice when you signed the contract thing. I asked to see the contract in advance before I went to Houston and was denied. You would have to be a labor lawyer to understand it. And as far as the whole uplift and overtime issue. The truth on that is still not out and remains to be seen.
Well from what I hear they bill the government for every hour worked as a whole because we are always in country so that would mean they are only paying us for the 40 hour of hazard and bill the GOV for the whole 84 whether we work it or not. And we will only get paid for the 40 we signed for no matter what. Just the same as a different company I work for now. I live on the economy in Kuwait and my company another 3 letter word. Towards the end of the alphabet. They pay me nothing at all. But they still charge the US GOV for me being here. And as for the per-diem how do they come up with $59.95 per day. What is that from “Wal-Mart” pricing. Seems really like someone has there hand in the kettle. OR so. See what you can find out about that? Thanks
What is the name of the company?
I agree the contract is difficult, probably to cover all the “what ifs” for the employee and more importantly KBR. The labor issue is what it is and KBR has been doing this for at least 14 years on their overseas government contracts.
The reason I am writing you is because of some of the abuses KBR is committing. In 2006 KBR had a substantial reduction in force laying off 25% of the US Expat work force .and rehired Foreign Nationals from Bosnia countries from the former Yugoslavia, Kenya, and India, and the Philippines. At a reduced wage of 25%. They are able to earn 60 to 80 thousand dollars a year. To give you an example I can exchange
One US dollar for 5 Mark’s in Bosnia currency
One US dollar for 35 India Rupees
One US dollar for 65 Kenya Shillings
You have an Idea. These employees a making literally Millions in there own countries. Paying no taxes. My years of hard work in the US paying taxes paid for the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. And part of the reason to involve private contractors in the military was that these dollars earned over seas would put tax dollars back into the United States.
I have seen first hand how the foreign contractor’s quality is substandard to US standards. There lack in English skills put US troops at risk. And there poor quality in work has cost American lives. And this is a fact. All so KBR can save 25% on labor costs. Soon the war in Iraq will be over and the first to go will be the American contractors. Why doesn’t the American government institute a Hire America First Act to save jobs. Just as the Fly America act.” I have to fly a US carrier when I fly home on my final R&R home” I am not an Anti Foreign National person.
But at a time when American citizens are losing there homes and jobs is it not best to protect jobs that were paid by the American Tax payer. I wonder if the American public knows that we are paying Foreign nationals 60 to 80 thousand dollars a year where in there own countries the average salary is 3 to 12 thousand dollars a year.
If contractors are sent home due to the reduction in military forces let it be the Foreign Nationals. They have made many more times I have made. I am writing this letter as matter fact with no prejudice on my part to my fellow man. I am sure you can investigate and will find this is true.
Colopal,
This issue with the Taj Palace Hotel is not good.
KBR must have a better way than to add it to your income.
The Per Diem Rate for Dubai is $362 US a day for hotel, but that is for people on Travel. I believe that a reduced rate is required for someone that is going to be in a Hotel for an extended amount of time.
http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem_action.asp?MenuHide=1&CountryCode=1172
I know when I was in the military that Housing was not Taxed, but I do not know about civilian contractors.
Does KBR pay you then deduct the money from your check for the Hotel?
You should ask if they sent W-2 with hotel cost on them for the people that were in the Kuwaiti Hilton from 2002 – 2005 or whenever.
This just doesn’t seem right.
Are you an OAS/SEII employee or are you and actual KBR employee?
Are you under a contract? If so, does KBR state that they will pay for your lodging? I would go talk to a Tax Professional if I were you.
I hope you can get this worked out.
Ms Sparky’s Response:
I have worked in several countries and stayed in hotels mandated by the company. It was a condition of employment. No choice. I have not been taxed for that. Something seems really messed up here!
I have to say this
$ 1 in the bosnian country 1,35 convertible marks, not a big difference.but it is true that we can to save money because we have clean money. As for the food and the cost of living if the same is now and now is more expensive than in America
HI,DON’T THINK THAT BOSNIAN PEOPLE ARE INCOMPLETE AND UN-TRAINED.WE SPEAK AT LEAST TWO LANGUAGES AND HAVE A HIGH EDUCATION IN EUROPE.WE ALREADY HAD A CONTRACT WITH U.S. MILITARY AND SERVE IN NATIONAL ARMY’S OR BEEN IN WAR,WE ARE READY TO SUPPORT UNITED STATES MILITARY AND YOUR GOVERMENT IN EVERY MISSION.WE ARE NOT INDIAN’S OR NEPALI WHO CAN’T SPEAK EVEN THERE OWN LANGUAGE.PLS,HAVE A MORE RESPECT FOR FOREING PEOPLE WHO SERVE AND SUPPORT YOUR GOVERMENT WITH CIV.AND MILITARY FORCES,AND BALKANS WHO GET KILLED ON THIS PROJECT.SOME PEOPLE GET FIRED FROM KBR NOT BECOUSE OF BALKANS…THEY GET FIRED BECOUSE OF THEIR OWN SH..
AND DO NOT FORGET,WE ARE NOT UN EDUCATED PEOPLE.WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY AND TRADITION,AND LIVE IN MEADLE OF EUROPE.HAVE A MORE RESPECT FOR OTHER AND COMPANY WHO SAFE A LOT OF EMPL.FROM U.S.GETTING A JOB IN KBR.DIGNITY AND RESPECT……
Ms Sparky’s Response:
I understand your contribution. I understand that you die just like anyone else. I would just like to say, it’s a US war paid for with US tax dollars and I would like to see US citizens hired first. And anyone that wants the same pay should have the same skills, credentials, licenses…..etc. American or Bosnian.
One US dollar for 1,35 Mark’s in Bosnia currency
Hi don’t think that Bosnian people are in complete a untrained. We speak at least two languages and have a high education in Europe. We al ready had a contract with us military and serve in nationals army’s or been in war we are ready to support United States military and your government with civ,and military forces and Balkans who get killed on this project ,some people get fired from kbr not because of Balkans they get fired because of their own sh..
And do not forget we are un educated people we have a long history and tradition, and live in meddle of Europe ,have a more respect for other and company who safe a lot of employ from us getting a job in kbr dignity and respect kbr is best company in world and American is very good people but some people have terrible attitude
Ms Sparky’s Response:
It’s about my US tax dollars. They should go to pay US Citizens first. Then Host country nationals second.
Plain and simple – American companies should hire American workers first and foremost. Simple as. You shouldn’t put American tax payer dollars into the pockets of people who have no intention of spending their money on American made products when Americans are on their asses. Charity starts at home.
Ms Sparky’s Response:
I agree 100%!!!
Repost to Admir,
Most of the Bosnians were more American than half of the Americans I’ve worked with. You’re a great people and some of you are my brothers for life. In several cases I decided to work with the Bosnian people instead because of the institutional and cultural racism by my fellow Americans brought to project by others.
If you lived in the United States things would be different. It’s an American business enterprise and we come first and everyone else second. Please remember, it’s an economic issue based upon your country’s cost of living! So if you think your going to make the same wage (in some cases you should) for electrical work running pipe or changing fixtures or providing another related similar service, it will never happen in your lifetime. We don’t use British or European Standards we use the American NEC National Electrical Code. Remember, just because some can quote the NEC doesn’t make them an electrician. In addition to performing the work, you have to be able to interpret the spirit of the code when presented with a challenging situation. If you don’t believe me ask any ICC Certified Building Official.
Ms Sparky’s Response:
Thanks for helping me to explain that. I don’t dislike Bosnians or anyone else for that matter. But I do feel that US tax dollars should support US citizens first and then the Host Country Nationals second.
“Baboo Remembers said,on July 3rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm Repost to Admir,
Most of the Bosnians were more American than half of the Americans I’ve worked with. You’re a great people and some of you are my brothers for life. In several cases I decided to work with the Bosnian people instead because of the institutional and cultural racism by my fellow Americans brought to project by others. ”
Well stated.
Thank you I understand and agree with you guys about tax,
I understand about paying taxes but I am not guilty if I got the opportunity to make money
honestly by once and I think it would be in my country so acted how you behave, for example, a stranger came to the Bosnian company, and make real money and my son has no job.
I completely understand, but understand that I am not guilty, and you are a great people, because when I worked about 12 years I never felt discrimination,
Repost to Admir:
To Admir, this is my last comment on the subject:
I understand your position, but please realize anytime an American company downsizes its labor force and brings in foreign workers there is always going to be a problem.
America intervened on behalf of the Muslims to stop the genocide created by the so-called Christian Serbs. That is one right decision we made as a nation. With this being said I wish you the best of luck and keep your head down.
Jimbo said,on July 3rd, 2009 at 8:56 pm “Baboo Remembers said,on July 3rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm Repost to Admir,
Most of the Bosnians were more American than half of the Americans I’ve worked with. You’re a great people and some of you are my brothers for life. In several cases I decided to work with the Bosnian people instead because of the institutional and cultural racism by my fellow Americans brought to project by others. ”
Thank you and that you know, to me it means a lot.my parents have learned me, If you want to be respected you have to respect different culture and traditions and you will only then to be respected, so that should be forget those who say that you are uneducated,because I just came from Bosnia.my head was straight and it was a war and my head will be straight in the future and i never keep my head down.
Thanks again Jimbo
Admir:
Keep your head down is American slang for “Stay Safe” from incoming weapons fire from insurgents who like to kill us!
Keep your head down is American slang for “Stay Safe” from incoming weapons fire from insurgents who like to kill us!
Pardon Babo I translated it differently,about keep head down. And I know you were right about the war in Bosnia, that there was no American war should never stop, to the truth but unfortunately the genocide occurred because Europe did not want to help in time.About paying taxes and you are right but everyone goes for a better life,
I just was felt bad when someone says that they do not deserve a good salary and we have not trained enough and I gave full support to 12 years the US- army,
this honestly say that I love America more than Europe europe really do not like no way
and I know what some Bosnian are constantly not satisfied and say that deserve more, and have never asked who gives them a salary and who gives food in Iraq someone all that paid I mean American citizens, this is my last comment and you’re right, the first need to get a job American citizens and then if there is a place to help friendly countries, because the economic situation is not good anywhere in the world. I hope that you understand me and that I did not think nothing bad
in the name of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina Bosnia and Herzegovina and its people, the United States and its American citizens, Congratulations Independence Day, “USA” with sincere appreciation that we are proud to have our America and the American people the greatest friends because our friendship to the best proof of our correctness understanding the world and its values.
“V I V A … A M E R I C A”